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a minor issue with cloak

Lark (Retired)
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors

Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2400

Posted: 2010-07-25 21:12

this isnt the first time its happened to me, but its incredibly frustrating: i just barely escaped a fight with 3 kluth dreads, 1% hull. i jump back to michelle, shields down to get energy back up. i am surrounded by 5 planets, and several friendly ships.

a kluth dread uncloaks, shoots me, and i die.

this is absolutely insane.

A) its pathetic that senior players can be so unconcerned about prestige that they can risk losing a dread just to kill someone at 1% hull, not to mention the absolute unsportsmanship of it.

B) I paid money for the enhancements on my ship, money that has just been partially wasted by this obscene tactic

C) it doesnt seem remotely fair that kluth are able to sit a dreadnaught in the middle of a planet cluster, the place you should feel safest and most at ease, without consequence unless you are actively looking for them.

it is a minor issue, because only the worst players would really go so low as to camp a repair site just to get the kick out of killing someone. but its ungodly frustrating and unfair, plain and simple. if i tried to do anything like that id die before i got within firing range.
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Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division

BackSlash
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy

Chatting in 'DarkSpace English'

Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 10708
From: Bristol, England

Posted: 2010-07-25 21:25

We've been looking at negating cloak around enemy planets for a while now, got a few more things on the drawing board to be looked at, and then I'll see if we can't get this pushed inbetween somewhere.
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Kenny_Naboo
Fleet Admiral
Pitch Black

Chatting in 'DarkSpace English'

Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 943
From: LobsterTown

Posted: 2010-07-25 22:20

Quote:

On 2010-07-25 21:12, Lark of Serenity wrote:

A) its pathetic that senior players can be so unconcerned about prestige that they can risk losing a dread just to kill someone at 1% hull, not to mention the absolute unsportsmanship of it.

C) it doesnt seem remotely fair that kluth are able to sit a dreadnaught in the middle of a planet cluster, the place you should feel safest and most at ease, without consequence unless you are actively looking for them.

Lark, looking at your points, I'd say:

A) Nothing pathetic. He's taking a risk of losing a lot of pres for minimal pres gains from your 1% dread.

And as I always said, this is a WAR game, not a sporting game.
As long as he didn't play the system it's legal.

C) K'luth can't always sit at a cluster. Sometimes, inexplicably, without pinging, planets can suddenly detect us while we're cloaked, and we get a stream of incoming fire and missiles.

Quote:

On 2010-07-25 21:25, BackSlash wrote:
We've been looking at negating cloak around enemy planets for a while now, got a few more things on the drawing board to be looked at, and then I'll see if we can't get this pushed inbetween somewhere.

Um.. so you're gonna nerf cloak around planets.

Fine.

Hope there's some compensation in it for K'luth.

How about more armor?

Either that, or a perfect cloak away from planets? No ECCM effects or other BS.

[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2010-07-25 22:22 ]
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Spartan Strike Squadron

Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 363

Posted: 2010-07-25 22:34

nothing wrong with "opportunity" gamestyle, but lark said they were camping an ICC cluster, so i assume they were griefing
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BackSlash
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy

Chatting in 'DarkSpace English'

Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 10708
From: Bristol, England

Posted: 2010-07-25 22:45

Kenny, K'luth are currently very powerful and have a huge advantage at this sort of cluster/planet warfare, and is one of the reasons why K'luth hold such a big % of Sagittarius.

Ever since cloak was changed to this new system way back when, myself and Tael saw the need for something like this to stop tranny rushing. However, since DarkSpace has evolved around the system, we see it's become much more of an issue.

There has always been thoughts of a 500 gu or so radius around enemy planets in which K'luth cloak is negated, and planets can shoot at them. We apply the same thought process in this instance to other factions - if you're within 500 gu of a planet, then you're either trying to capture it, or trying to kill someone. For that, there should be some sort of advantage fo the faction holding the cluster...

For ICC and UGTO, that advantage is the planetary defence shooting at the enemy. For K'luth, there is none - and there needs to be one. The 500 gu area around the planet would go some way to rectifying this. Bear in mind this is 500 gu from the center, not from the surface, so the actual distance from the planet is 400 gu (or less in some cases).

This is not a nerf, more of bringing K'luth in line with other factions in this aspect of fighting. A note worth mentioning is that this has only been spoken about losely in private staff channels, and hasn't even remotely been discussed heavily (as we have other projects we're working on currently, and the work timeline is quite busy). It will be discussed at some point, and there will be a tweak to the mechanics in which K'luth engage around planets, as they currently are immune to the advantage the defending faction is supposed to have when holding a planet or cluster.

Unfortunately, it's an issue which hasn't been on the forefront of our development schedule due to other issues being higher up the importance scale. This topic has highlighted a long running issue in which a few developers have issue with, and it will be looked into at a future date.

- Jack
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash on 2010-07-25 22:50 ]
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Vice Admiral Josh Knight

Interstellar Cultural Confederation United

Joined: July 25, 2010
Posts: 52

Posted: 2010-07-25 22:46

I completely understand you being mad, i would be too.

But from my understanding, cloaking is the one thing that makes them viable as a faction, and nerfing it doesn't seem right. If they want to camp around a planet cloaked all day, fine, just gotta check the area around your planets.
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Lark (Retired)
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors

Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2400

Posted: 2010-07-25 22:52

if a multiple cloak system was in place, so you COULD say, sit cloaked near a planet, but trying to kill even a damaged ship would be suicidal, thatd be alright

in this instance, a DREADNAUGHT was CAMPING a CLUSTER. that is absurd. if i could do it in my AD youd all be up in arms, why is it permissable for a kluth siphon to do it?

i think its also an issue that a person flying a dread was so unconcerned about the risk of uncloaking in the middle of a cluster of 5 planets to get a kill. i worry about dying because of my enhancements because i paid money for them. other people get non-enhanced ships and throw them away like trash. whats the point to spending money if thats going to happen?

i wouldnt even be opposed to cloak being negated at 250gu instead of 500. but something, please.

[ This Message was edited by: Lark of Serenity on 2010-07-25 22:56 ]
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Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
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Kenny_Naboo
Fleet Admiral
Pitch Black

Chatting in 'DarkSpace English'

Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 943
From: LobsterTown

Posted: 2010-07-25 22:53

Quote:

On 2010-07-25 22:45, BackSlash wrote:
Kenny, K'luth are currently very powerful and have a huge advantage at this sort of cluster/planet warfare, and is one of the reasons why K'luth hold such a big % of Sagittarius.

Ever since cloak was changed to this new system way back when, myself and Tael saw the need for something like this to stop tranny rushing. However, since DarkSpace has evolved around the system, we see it's become much more of an issue.

There has always been thoughts of a 500 gu or so radius around enemy planets in which K'luth cloak is negated, and planets can shoot at them. We apply the same thought process in this instance to other factions - if you're within 500 gu of a planet, then you're either trying to capture it, or trying to kill someone. For that, there should be some sort of advantage fo the faction holding the cluster...

For ICC and UGTO, that advantage is the planetary defence shooting at the enemy. For K'luth, there is none - and there needs to be one. The 500 gu area around the planet would go some way to rectifying this. Bear in mind this is 500 gu from the center, not from the surface, so the actual distance from the planet is 400 gu (or less in some cases).

This is not a nerf, more of bringing K'luth in line with other factions in this aspect of fighting. A note worth mentioning is that this has only been spoken about losely in private staff channels, and hasn't even remotely been discussed heavily (as we have other projects we're working on currently, and the work timeline is quite busy). It will be discussed at some point, and there will be a tweak to the mechanics in which K'luth engage around planets, as they currently are immune to the advantage the defending faction is supposed to have when holding a planet or cluster.

- Jack

[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash on 2010-07-25 22:46 ]

Hiya Jack,

A cloak auto-negate would only make ICC and UGTO sit around planets instead of coming out into open space and fighting us. Already, we have to take the fight to them most of the time.

As per my previous post. I think you can go with what Cory suggested and introduce a new planetary structure that autopings every 15 secs or so. It's a variant of the sensor base that switches itself on and off.

Every ping will reveal any cloaked vessels within the radius, and the rest of the sensor bases and plats will raise the sigs.

[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2010-07-25 22:56 ]
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Lark (Retired)
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors

Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2400

Posted: 2010-07-25 23:24

kenny, it wasnt a contested system. 3-4 kluth were flying around in deep space, and didnt own a single planet. regardless, if you own a 5 planet cluster, you do not expect to get attacked with no warning in its very heart.

as for ICC PSM bombing: its really a horrible tactic. we have to spend a lot of time rebuilding the planet afterwards, which also tends to be useless when we first cap it and very easy to retake. it spawned from having to route UGTO stations from depot planets. now we do it because UGTO station fleets are there or nearby and a regular bombing run would be too hazardous. i would personally much rather neutron bomb all the planets we cap, but PSMing is safer and easier.

theres also absolutetly nothing stopping UGTO from returning the favour, you have ships with PSM capable slots too.

anyways, back on topic pls.
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Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division

Alexander Drax

Joined: July 08, 2010
Posts: 3

Posted: 2010-07-25 23:41

ok ive been looking at both sides of this. Im a ICC player and proud to say so. I get frustraited too when i attack a dread in my frigate or destroyer and he cloaks and flee do to his armor is paper. as far as a decloak thats a touchy thing. Yes pinging reveals for like a tenth of a second where a kluth vessle is but to be honest all that tells you is a general area where he/she is and doesnt help much.

to be fair coaking should be harder to do the closer to the target you are. at 1000 cloak works exilent. at 100 you should be at least partialy visable do to being able to seeing the shimmer around the ship as it bends light to keep itself invisable. coming in and shooting some oen and then going cloak 2 seconds later and not getting any kind of retaliation in responce does seam broken.

another way is that cloak can be broken (as in decloaked) if they get so close to a planet / platform / or player. Kluths ecm will still work but he should be able to be seen the closer to him you get. So you can see the target but accualy targeting him is another matter.

Also a way to balance i think is pinging should do more then give you a 1 second "i see you" thing. Could make it to where being pinged resets a kluths cloaking timer all together. kind of like how an inderditor shuts down a jump drive. he will be able to recloak again but has to wait out the cool down.

Onl way left would be an accualy device that decloaks a kluth. as far as game balance i dont really beleave that would be fair to a kluth. their armro is so weak as it is not having a way to recloak would get them killed way easy. If there was a ship item to decloak a kluth it should be very energy draining. takes up a slot for like an auxillery fusion core would go. you activate it and it drains your energy fast but it breaks cloak for like 1000 gu around you. only stays on as long as your energy lasts. give it a name like "life form scanner".

only real kicker would be that only the person using it can see the target. everyone else would still see nothing. ombind with a beacon and it could be a fleet saver.

just some ideas. honestly im only bugged that one they shoot they can recloak in under a second and it really makes it unfair to shoot back. a longer timer could all that really needs to be changed. Oh well. still a great game. Balance will always be an issue.
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Gejaheline
Admiral
Galactic Navy

Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 521
From: UGTO Fleet HQ, Mars

Posted: 2010-07-26 06:08

What follows is a short essay on why K'luth ships are horrible. I'm not implying that K'luth ships are god-killing superweapons, since otherwise everyone would just play K'luth, but it should hopefully provide an insight into why the K'luth faction is the hardest to keep balanced with the other two sides.

K'luth are, in short, horrible to balance. Additionally, their tactics massively favour the use of dreadnaughts.

Why? Because they have cloak, basically. It allows them to use their favoured tactics at virtually any time, and any place. Let's have a look at their strengths and weaknesses, first. I'll probably miss some out, but hopefully I'll cover the biggest ones.

K'luth strengths:

Cloak. This is essentially perfect invisibility, vulnerable only to flying too fast and pinging, which requires lightning reflexes since the diamond only appears for fractions of a second. It also provides immunity to long-range missile and fighter attacks.

Auto hull repair and speedy armour regeneration. This negates the need for supply ships.

Lots and lots and lots of killy, never-miss beam weapons, along with all of the short-range, max-damage variants of various weapon types. They have the highest-damage core weapon, and the highest-damage torpedoes. Pressing spacebar on a K'luth ship generally results in epic amounts of damage on whatever's sitting in front of you. I think there are perhaps two non-k'luth warships that can kill scouts and destroyers in a single attack, and they're both assault deadnaughts. K'luth dreadnaughts can be reasonably expected to deal hull damage during a single pass, if not outright killing the target.

AMJD. They will ALWAYS be able to jump before you can.

Weaknesses:

Weak armour. They've not got the best in protective technologies.

Hugely aggressive weapon layouts. K'luth ships will typically have lots of front-only guns, although their dreads are something of an exception there. They still won't have as many rear-facing guns as other faction's dreads. Unless you're using a krill, in which case you have rear-facing core weapons, if memory serves. But then, all factions have exceptions to something.

Horrible energy management. Their huge arrays of death-dealing weaponry tend to consume rather a lot of power, as does their cloak. This also reduces their effective damage over time in comparison to other ships.

Short range. All of their guns are either beams, which are inherently short-ranged (although not as short as other factions' beams due to no falloff), or optimised for close combat in some way, typically trading range and velocity for more damage.

Now, most of these strengths and weaknesses seem fairly reasonable on paper. K'luth are a hard-hitting, no-defence faction that can give out lots of damage but not take it.

The problem, in a word: Cloak.

The cloaking device, as it is, is supremely powerful in that it negates a lot of K'luth's disadvantages whilst allowing them to maximise their advantages:

On the defensive, cloak allows you to easily disengage. Unless you have a gigantic fleet pinging you constantly you can probably live long enough to repair yourself or get to a safe distance and jump away. Once you've jumped, you can cloak to prevent anyone from following you. If nobody knows you're around, only the most paranoid of players will ping you and therefore notice you, and that's if they're lucky enough to be in range of you.

On the offensive, in combat, cloak allows you to make maxmum use of your optimum tactics. K'uth ships are best when facing the enemy at close range, from behind where they can't shoot you. Cloak makes it pretty easy to get into this position, and if you're not in position, then there is no need to uncloak. YOU get to choose engagement range, and YOU get to shoot first, typically crippling the hapless target. Once you've fired once or twice, recloak and reposition. This counters most of the k'luth's weaknesses.

Low relative damage over time is negated because your DPS is massively front-loaded: You deal all of your damage at the start of the engagement, and by keeping engagement times short, you reduce the opportunity for enemy ships (who deal a more-or-less constant amount of damage over time) to cause an equivalent amount of damage. This allows you to deal way more damage to the enemy ships than they do to you, particularly since they'll probably have to use rear or side weapons. This also allows you to kill smaller ships far more easily, since they will typically die in the first volley rather than be able to evade enough fire to make an escape.
This one is probably the main kicker, in my opinion, particularly since prestige gain is based on damage inflicted.

The very limited firing arcs are also rendered irrelevant, since you will always be facing your target. Otherwise, you wouldn't have engaged. Same thing for the short range focus. Additionally, you don't need to absorb enemy long-range fire because they won't be able to target you.

Weak armour is negated by the fact that you can cloak in order to avoid return fire. In addition, cloaking gives your repair systems time to work, so you can be at 100% for your next run, while your target will still be damaged. Unless they have a supply ship, but of course that can be killed first.

And, of course, this all heavily favours k'luth dreadnaughts. They don't have to worry about speed or manouevering, since they can just hide until the perfect moment. They don't need to worry about missing small targets, because they have perfectly accurate beam weapons. They have the most guns, which is what matters, and they have the armour to survive their relatively slow cloak times.

Oh, and it's really easy to capture planets, too.

All of this tends to make fighting k'luth fairly dull for the other teams, since if k'luth aren't killing you horribly, they're invisible. Which doesn't make for much in the way of rewarding combat or prestige gain, which is further aggravated by the knowledge that they're making oodles of prestige every time they hit the spacebar, and you know that if you try and use a scout you'll just get killed in one shot by a giant red thing materialising next to you.

Of course, if you took cloak away from K'luth, everyone would have a field day killing them, since they can't survive sustained combat.

tl;dr: K'luth are really hard to keep both balanced and interesting because any tweaking will cause them to kill everyone really easily or cause them die a horrible horrible death, neither of which are fun, and it's really hard to find a middle ground.

Postscript: About a billion people are going to counter the above with "Ah, but it takes mad leet skillz to play K'luth properly, therefore we are superior."

Let me counter with this hypothetical question: If someone turned up with a ship that was totally invincible and killed anything in one shot from any distance, but which required some kind of ludicrously complex control mechanism/keyboard combination/<insert "skillful" activity here> in order to operate, which if more likely? Would you:

1: Defeat them with your even madder, leeter skills, in spite of their invulnerability?
2: Shrug, say "fair enough" and die in the knowledge that you were bested by someone even more skillful than you?
3: Complain bitterly and demand that this blatantly broken game object be removed?

Or, to put it another way: Is it acceptable to allow players to use unfair tactics as long as they're sufficiently skillful to use them?

The problem with the skill argument here is that you can't counter "skillful" use of k'luth ships with "skillful" use of UGTO ships.
The way to counter a cloaked k'luth ship is, basically, lots of ECCM, which requires no more skill than getting a mob of sensor scouts. Except that you'd need something like 16 scouts to have an even battle with a dreadnaught.

End rant. I shall donate 800 credits to the UGTOSPCG (UGTO Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Gaifen) if nobody manages to completely miss the point of the above essay and instead flames me. Otherwise I'll feel smug and spend it on an extra AI dreadnaught.
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Fatal Perihelion

Fatal Squadron

Joined: April 15, 2010
Posts: 92

Posted: 2010-07-26 07:15

To topic, sorry i totaly disagree.

The Kluth lurking near the depots needs patience and takes a certain risk,
if he is spotted he will deliver pres on his way out of the dictors, if he makes it out at all.
If ICC or UGTO dont ping or sensor enough it is their fault.
If the team doesnt warn you and take counter actions: "KLuth at depots,
watch out, chase them off the planet asap!" it is their fault.

Destroying a ship is most fun and there is not much room for mercy in war.

If you loose money this way, this is the risk you take for beeing 30% stronger then all those who dont buy upgrades.

One thing IS unfair: Kluth are hard to kill and therefore they
save a lot of credits in the long term.

Atm i am happy if there are some Kluth to fight at all, they may control most of Sag but they are not there.^^

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Gejaheline
Admiral
Galactic Navy

Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 521
From: UGTO Fleet HQ, Mars

Posted: 2010-07-26 07:32

Quote:

On 2010-07-26 06:31, SPaRTaN Z (Star Fox) wrote:

God knows how many seconds that could have bought,.. ,.

About three, assuming the planets don't get bombed flat.

Incidentally, I notice how people keep saying things like "this is war".

Quote:

The Rules of Conduct, section 3.1.1.d wrote:

All Players should adhere to the Code of Sportsmanship.
As a game involving more than one Player, all Players should abide by this prime rule: Be honest and fair to one another at all times; win well and lose well; and always keep in mind that it IS just a game. Have fun and share it.

So there we are. This is not war.

Okay, so if this one was actually enforced we'd probably have about three people left, but still, it's there. Whilst killing someone in combat is pretty much the aim of the game, sneaking up on someone who is out of the fight and almost dead (and thus would net you a tiny amount of prestige from killing them) and then killing them when they're repairing their ship (causing them to lose lots of prestige) strikes me as more an exercise in griefing rather than an attempt to gain a tactical advantage.

But then, being sporting isn't exactly the topic here. We're talking about how to make sure cloaking isn't broken.
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Bardiche
Marshal
Templar Knights

Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 878

Posted: 2010-07-26 07:41

The problem with sensor base planets is that they get razed easily, or bombed easily.

I think there is something inherently wrong if platforms around Michelle, which might I remind you is surrounded on all sides by planets... but if platforms around Michelle are considered "good targets to shoot" by K'Luth Dreads.

This is what K'Luth should be thinking of. Platforms around planets should be considered to have some safety. This goes doubly so for clustered planets. Sure, UGTO and ICC can pick them off at great range by using missiles and fighters.

"But!", I hear you say, because I have excellent hearing, "how else are we supposed to kill the platforms?! We don't have range like UGTO and ICC do!" ... which is what we call "factional weakness".

But the problem I am highlighting here is that a ship uncloaks from 100gu away from a planet, pops the platforms and then moves on.

I once built eight sensor platforms around Necroph. Necroph, let me tell you, has about 4 Offence Base IIs, and five Offence Base Is. I personally watched it destroy a Cruiser within little time.

Personally I consider it a planet quite adequate at defending itself. ... It broke my heart a little when a K'Luth Dreadnought uncloaked within 200gu of the planet, popped platforms, then cloaked and ran off like nobody's business, and came back after repairing to finish the job. Because the planet's ~50 signature wasn't enough to deter the Dreadnought.

Later a Transport came in, uncloaked from 50gu distance, dropped Raze Inf, cloaked and moved on.

No matter how valid you, as K'Luth, may find it... or just how skillful you purport this to be (I've always found it more a matter of insight than skill, though), it is rather frustrating to other factions that the entire point of planetary defence, being to deter enemies and provide a safe haven, is negated by a simple 'V', and that the defences that can make it more difficult for K'Luth to (un)cloak are not really suitable for planetary defence because then they won't shoot the K'Luth.

We have to pick between having planets shoot UGTO when they approach and K'Luth when they uncloak, or planets who focus on hampering K'Luth but being less effective due to just not hurting anything.

It's impossible to build a planet that is suitably well at both defending itself and deterring the K'Luth.
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Marius Falix
Grand Admiral
Spicy Walnuts

Joined: July 05, 2010
Posts: 139
From: Luyten

Posted: 2010-07-26 10:00

Well yeah ....no "skill" as its claimed to be is lets face it... hitting V and being able to lose the enemy firing on ya... which face it is bloody easy when they cant see you. -_-

perhaps when a ship gets within 50-100 gu of cloaked ship, it sig shows... ya know the red targetting diamond.

what do luth have to complain about that? we are gettting CLOSER!
(im ICC close = bad)

i mean luth cloak, atleast give us a way for a ship to take on its alien counterpart in an engagement.

coz unless you accidently jump the poor sod you aint gonna know till he shoots u in the arse, and when ya do, kluth will probably keep firing and possibly wipe you out.

but if thees someway you were blessed with survival and manage to turn that slagged ship around and manage to get close to the guy, i do believe itd be fair TO LET THE POOR GUY SHOOT BACK!.

this is just a theoretical one vs one here.

since luth hunt in packs i think it wouldnt make that much of a difference if ya get this implemented.
just means they cant go overkill and be hugging ur ass before they all uncloak.

and yes this will make luth require skill as you would have to "dance" with ur opponent, (best firing range for luth dread =250?) youd have to keep em close enough to fire effectively yet keep em out of range so they dont see ya.

= would actually require some semblence of skill

as for planets i think the suggested plans are good, maybe no that effective but hopefully enough.

Thoughts? srsly Luth dont start spouting... bad things about how u are skillfull -_-

using team work is not skill its just smart, and ur team NEED to use it in a major engagement... so the team actually does pay attention and work together.

and if skill = dodging while invis u can just stfu.
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